Jenny, one of the readers of this blog asked: "How can we change things so that people are not so worried about what others will think and will seek help when neccesary? I don't think the church ever intended for this to be the mindset and to leave people in suffering!"
I know certainly that a loving God would not intend that. I would like to believe that no particular person or persons ever intended that either. Perhaps the reason we have come to this point is because there has been more faith placed on what we have heard from the pulpits and from the mouths of men, than in God and in the Word and in the earnest seeking of Truth?
These portions of the New Testament came to mind:
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."
We need to seek the Spirit of truth and do all things in truth, not in tradition. What would be more important to God, the traditions of men, or truth?
We need to allow ourselves to think about the most important matter of our lives. We need to assess ourselves and our lives with an open heart and mind:
Matthew 7 "Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Do we have a beam in our eye? We need to work on ourselves first instead of worrying about what everyone else is doing. We have heard, faith is personal. We need to walk and live in that way.
We do not need to be fearful in our seeking of truth if we are not seeking for ourselves and our own opinions and biases. We can feel free if we seek Truth for the goodness of all and with the guidance of the Spirit.
Truth cannot be exploited, it cannot die. The truth doesn't always feel good, especially when we discover we may not be right, but if we try to hide from it, we remain blinded. How can we know the truth if we blindly accept without consideration, the things we hear from other men and do not seek it for ourselves? Most of us cannot say that we have even read much of the Bible. When we have, I am not doubtful that it was only to research a small portion we heard, or the one on the church calendar and we do not venture much into it. If the Word is the pillar of Truth but we not even read it, how do we know that what we are taught is truth? Are we trusting our own feelings and the preaching from the pulpit above God's word? We should read His word, seeking truth and light.
Matthew 15: 8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
If do not seek the truth and do not pursue it earnestly how do we know that we are not blind following/leading the blind? Why are we so afraid of everything "on the outside?" Do books and music and movies, "unbelievers" and our flesh hold more power than Christ? Why do we give them so much power? If we are planted by the Father why are we so afraid to be rooted up? If our faith is in Him, nothing can take it away or destroy it.
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
We do not need to fear the world because Christ has already overcome the world. We can feel free to seek the truth because nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, especially not truth. God loves truth, knowing truth will only bring us closer to Him.
Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
All we need to do is simply pray that the truth would be revealed and that we could accept it, trust God, and view Him as our Highest authority. We do not need obey Him out of fear, but we WANT to obey Him because we love and revere Him. He sent His son as atonement for all because He loves us. He is a God of love and has forgiven us for our weaknesses already. We only need to accept that. The message does not need to be repeated over and over and over, we simply need to believe it and accept it. When we do accept it and hold it in our hearts, it does not go away. All of our sins, past present and future are washed away forever. We may make mistakes, but we realize it is ok and we move forward and learn from our mistakes. We can do all things through Christ. We can move forward, we can heal, we can stop making such big mistakes, because we believe in Him and His power.
Thank you for addressing this question. I do believe you have some good points
ReplyDelete- it would be of great help or importance for each person to seek the truth in this manner. Both those who are afraid and those who are however knowingly or unknowingly causing the fear. I think it is important for people to realize that this IS a fear for some, and to ask themselves, have they ever done anything to assist in creating this fear, and what can they change. However you say "He is a God of love and has forgiven us for our weaknesses already. We only need to accept that. The message does not need to be repeated over and over and over, we simply need to believe it and accept it. When we do accept it and hold it in our hearts, it does not go away" and I think this is intended to imply that the forgiveness of sins, as the Laestadians see it, (as something that is preached in what is called "the gospel") is unneccesary. I would like to respectfully disagree. I do believe that when we sin, as we all do everyday no matter how big or small, it is like dirt that gets into our living soul, the holy spirit, and that this gospel helps to cleanse that dirt away so that the sins dont become too heavy a burden. That is simply my view on the matter.
Thank you for your respectful reply. It is wonderful to be able to discuss these things with someone who does not neccesarily agree, in a loving manner. I agree that we need to be aware when we do things that are wrong but we shouldn't focus on them. I think it is important that we admit our faults and ask forgiveness when we have done something against another person or have done something wrong because it humbles us and helps us and others realize we are all equal. However, I believe God has already forgiven our sins and it is only because we haven't forgiven ourselves that we feel we need this blessing. I do not think it is healthy practice to constantly put ourselves down saying we are sinful and horrible, I feel that is what we are taught to do in a way. Even if we are sinful it doesn't matter because God still loves us and that is what is so wonderful and that is why we can feel happy and free! Even though we make mistakes God loves us just the way we are and accepts us. This is why we want to do His will and do what is right. If we focus on our sinfulness we are not allowing his light to shine. We should focus on His love and goodness and how we can serve each other with love and how we can do His will. We should not focus on our weakness and sinfulness. In a way that kind of mindset seems self-centered if we think about it. When we focus on Him and His love and His power, it takes us out of our small minds and we see a greater picture. Our God is so great, we are capable of anything through Him! I prefer to focus on that because I am better able to use the gifts He gave me to use when I trust in Him and am not focused on my weak self. I think asking for the forgiveness of sins is a good practice when we realize we have done wrong but it is not one that is neccesary for salvation.
ReplyDeleteHm. Interesting reply. I think I'm a little stumped, because on one hand, I totally agree that we should not focus on how weak we are until it becomes something we feel horrible about ourselves for, but on the other hand, I believe it is a good reminder that we are all sinful and weak, each and every one of us, and helps us remember that no one is better than any other, even if you fall into different sins-all sins have the same price in Gods eyes. I also agree that you need to remember how much God loves you, and I feel that the forgiveness of sins as preached in the gospel can be this reminder. I do believe you need to hear, and accept, this gospel once in your lifetime in order to recieve salvation, this is the way of accepting God into your life, heart, and soul and you are able to recieve the Holy Spirit in this way. If you can hold onto this and remember it, even through the accumulation of every day sin, then I would agree that you would never have to hear the gospel again. I think, though, that, being the sinful people we are, this is very difficult to do, and repeatedly recieving this gospel reminds us of his love for us and his cleansing of all sins (yes, past, present, and future). I also feel it is important to ask for and hear this gospel when you have hurt or been hurt by another person. As you said it is humbling to ask, and is again a way to remind us that we ALL sin (and therefore, how can you say you are such a horrible person, when the person next to you sins every day too?). I think any time a person asks for the gospel it is a humbling experience, no matter the situation. It is our way of saying that yes, we remember we are sinners, and we would like to be reminded of Gods great love so that we can continue to do our best to serve Him. That is how I have grown up thinking and feeling about the Gospel as preached by another believer.
DeleteSee, that's the hardest thing for me and something I have not been able to wrap my head or heart around since I was in grade 5 and my friend asked me if I thought her grandpa was going to heaven. I can't believe that a loving God would create 7 billion people then send them to eternal damnation for not hearing this specific message of "believe all sins forgiven in Jesus name and blood." from a Laestadian when we are less that .1 % of the worlds population. What about a woman who is in third world country of Africa then is killed at age 23 as a result of a genocide. If she doesn't hear this gospel , she doesn't recieve salvation? Do you really think each of the 7 billion people on earth have been given a time of visitation when many many people never hear of this or come in contact with a Laestadian in their lifetime? If that is truly the case and people truly believe it, there needs to be much, much more concentration on mission work. There are civilizations in the African or South African rainforest of which we have seen evidence of but refuse to communicate in an anyway with the modern world. Even they have had a time of visitation? The practice of the forgiveness of sins is not even talked about in the Bible. It seems like with something so important, God would have left very clear instructions if He does indeed love us. Of course these are only my opinions.
DeleteGod promises that everyone will have the opportunity to make this choice to hear or reject his Chosen Kingdom. How he can do this is beyond me, but I choose to have faith in His miraculous works. Perhaps it is not that they have actually come into contact with a member of the Laestadian church, but that God has shown them that they were not correct in their beliefs and gave them the opportunity to go searching for the Truth and they chose to ignore him? Who knows, God is a miracle worker! (just so you know, your argument could be used for EVERY religion. If you believe EVERY single person has a time of visitation as promised (and I do) then, do you really think that these civilizations in the rainforest who have no contact with anyone hear of God or the muslims or...?? How, when they will not, cannot, and do not want to communicate with anyone outside their own 'clan'?) You simply have to believe that God can do what he has promised.
DeleteGod could indeed show up there in spirit and tell them! :-) The spirit doesn't only live in humans.
DeleteGreat post M.David. I agree people need to hear and believe the gospel which is God sent his one andonly son to earth and he died for our sins, past, present and future and we are.saved by Grace and no doing of our own. When you accept this truth and believe it in your heart and accept Christ as your Saviour you are saved. You need not hear it from a LLC member. You can read it in a book, hear about it from someone else, a sermon, radio, TV. The spoken words in themselves have no power, the power is in believing it for yourself. When Christ died it was finished, there is nothing more you need to do but believe what he did and accept him. It is good to confess our sins to each other and admit our faults. It gets things off your chest and keeps you humble and connects you deeper to people. God wants us to do this together. To say a sin is not forgiven unless a LLC member tells youthat it is is false teaching. Our sins are covered by his blood. Its finished. We just need to believe.
ReplyDeleteWhat part, then, does the Holy Spirit play, do you believe everyone has a Holy Spirit, no matter what a person believes? And if not, then how do you come into possession of the Holy Spirit? I believe this is through the speaking of the Gospel. If you hear these words and chose not to believe, then nothing happens. But if you chose to believe and accept this message and because the LLC member possesses the Holy Spirit, then you can accept the Holy Spirit into you as well. It really does not much matter what words are said, the ones accepted as 'gospel' are the ones that have been passed down, but it is this sharing of the Holy Spirit that makes the ritual important.
DeleteThe Holy Spirit can come into you when you are alone, not always when a person is present. You can hear the gospel, the good news, not understand it at the moment and then later accept it. The gospel is a teaching. The good news told that Jesus came and dies for your sins. Almost everyone has heard this in the US for example and many have chosen not to accept it. The bible says the Holy Spirit goes where he wishes and you can indeed be alone when it actually happens. It happened to me when I was alone. I have obviously heard the good news but didn't truly understand what it all meant until I prayed and prayed to God for understanding. I didnt trust man, I was getting two different stories. I can tell you the exact time and day the Holy Spirit came into me and I was alone. He changes me, scales fell from my eyes, perceptions and desires changed. Amazing!
DeleteNo I do not believe everyone has the Holy Spirit. You have it when you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and that is obviously after you have heard about the gospel, which is just the good news that Jesus died for your sins. You can read the gospel in the bible as well and accept Christ and repent (which is simply turning from sin and turning to God). This can happen alone or with another person. Saul was just one example in the bible where he had a revelation and then heard about the gospel from Ananias.
DeleteI am not sure how it all works with people who have never heard of Jesus, never heard of the gospel like Nomads or people in 3rd world countries. I am stumped on that one. The bible does say that the way to heaven is only through Christ. I guess God can save who he wants.
ReplyDeleteIf this also stumps you as a 'christian' outside this church, how then, can you use it as an argument for leaving the church? Either way, you believe it has to happen, but cannot understand how.....
DeleteI never said this was an argument for leaving. I just know their is salvation outside the LLC. I think its our job to tell people about the good news (gospel)so maybe eventually everyone will have heard it idk?
DeleteThis is actually one of the reasons as to why I do not follow the LLC's faith anymore. I do not believe that the LLC, like stated above, is the only "right" religion with such a small percentage of the population. This bothered me, because I always felt like some people outside of the church were more at peace with themselves than I was when I was believing, and they behaved better too. Very few people I meet these days have heard of the LLC, so does that mean that all of these people are eternally damned? I think not. I choose to believe that people have their own moral compasses that can guide them towards right and wrong, whether or not they attend church or practice a religion. I do not believe in having to be called to a church or higher power; rather, a person should have an innate understanding of morality. For example, a person growing up in a third world country or outside of the mainstream may never hear of the LLC or other religions, but their actions and moral beliefs are what should matter most, even though they may never attend church.
DeleteAlso God gave us free will. We can accept the gospel or we can reject it. More people could end up being not saved then are because they have rejected God. He doesn't force anyone to believe, its freewill. But then supposedly God knows who will be saved so I am stumped on that too. I don't thin we will ever truly comprehend his ways. I would rather believe and find out its not true then not believe and find out that it is.
ReplyDeleteIf this also stumps you as a 'christian' outside this church, how then, can you use it as an argument for leaving the church? Either way, you believe it has to happen, but cannot understand how.....
DeleteWow, this just is not going right, somehow I posted the last thing twice, and now I just lost everything I had written, I will try once more. Okay, so the way I see it is that God knows us so well, since he knows our past, present, and future, that he knows which choice we will make, and yet he loves us SO much, that he still makes sure we are given the opportunity to make this choice on our own. But this is just the way I have understood it, not anything I have been specifically taught.
DeleteI, also, would rather believe and find out that ALL those who believe in God are saved (I would be eternally happy as I have SO many dear, dear friends and relatives who have chosen not to believe the way I do) than to give it all up just so I can go dancing/swear/whatever only to find out that you did need to believe in and hear this Gospel.
Are you still in the LLC?
DeleteYes, I am. Is this a problem? I had been questioning things when I first was given the link to this blog, but oddly enough reading and discussing like this has strengthened and renewed my faith in what I believe and have been taught. I do think I am still being open in discussing other options, and I feel it can be hard to come across as respectful online, and so have been trying my best to word things so that I disagree, but sound as respectful of your beliefs as I feel. I am sorry if I come across as disrespectful, I truely am not! I am thankful people have been given freewill and I try to remain understanding of their own choices. I have enjoyed the debating and hope to be 'allowed' to continue to do so.
DeleteBut there are many churches that preach the same thing. Some of them are more strict, some them less. Why do you not fear that their way is the right way? how do you know God now thinks its ok for women to wear skirts? how do you know God thinks its ok to straighten or curl our hair but not to dye it? Somehow we struck the magic balance? Why do "guidelines" change or get forgotten about then if they are so important they cause separations. For example in the "heresies" the only differences usually lie in whether someone wears nail polish or watches tv or does sports. What kind of God thinks those things are things worthy of sending someone to eternal damnation? Those are truly the only differences, it is only a difference of opinion. I believe in a God that cares about the heart of a person not their practices and traditions. I didn't choose not to live this way so I could do those things. I just gave up the idea that God cares about those things. It seems far too human for a heavenly, all powerful, all mighty, all loving being to care about appearances, practices and traditions. I would not say I gave up my faith but that my faith was increased. I believe many feel the same way. They did not leave God but left membership to an organization.
DeleteMatthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Jenny this is not a problem at all. I don't think anyone is implying that it is. I welcome your questions and opinions. Thank you for being here, I enjoy reading what you write and feel a connection with you, even though I don't know you. All are welcome here, no matter what their beliefs. I am not looking to prove any beliefs wrong, I am only looking for Truth. I believe we all become better when we listen and consider what others have to say. This does not mean we need to accept it as Truth, if it does not settle with us, but it makes us better able to understand each other and have more love for our neighbor. Thank you all for being here. I enjoy your company.
DeleteM. David. Thank you for such a welcoming and touching message. I, too, enjoy reading what you have to say and look forward to coming on here. I love how respectful and welcoming you have been, and feel like we could be good friends.
DeleteAs do I Jenny, I really appreciate that you can disagree but do so respectfully. I wish this was possible for everyone. I would be interested in corresponding with you directly if you are comfortable with that? If not, that is completely understandable and I am perfectly happy with talking to you here. (:
DeleteM. David- I will send you an email to the address you have posted on here previously.
DeleteJenny, even though I am no longer a believer, I also think that is is great for you to comment! I think that a person should be able to understand their religion, challenge it, and still come out feeling like they are strong in their beliefs. You are clearly right where you are meant to be! I never felt like I was, because I couldn't think about or discuss the religion without having serious doubts. I think that each of us have different views, but that's okay! Maybe we are all here to sort them out a little bit and learn more aobut ourselves.
DeleteThank you anonymous. I, also, believe it is good to be able to ask questions and understand what you believe, if you do not understand what it is you are believing, how can you believe? I am here to try understand how others believe, and I like hearing what you all have to say, it really makes me think, and search out what it is I believe to be true, and I think that is good! It only makes me a stronger and better person.....
DeleteM. David You ask how I know that this is the right one and not one of the more lenient or stricter heresies... I think you are on the right path in saying that God does not care about these things, but as to which heart you are doing them in. I think that you have to understand why the 'guidelines' were set, and to me, these are the ones that actually make sense. Perhaps, though, I just have not asked enough questions of those who stuck with something more strict. I guess the hair one has actually always confused me a bit, and I have just accepted it. But I am one who actually likes my hair color, so who am I to say someone else shouldnt dye theirs, when I feel so free to curl my hair even though God gave me straight hair? Not sure how to respond. But I have watched TV and have seen so many different things that have made me uncomfortable- visions of half naked people and swearing and glorifying of certain people, and can understand why we would be instructed to avoid it. True, I will watch the news, disney channel, or a sports game etc. while out babysitting or at a hotel, because I dont think the instruction is that tv is wrong, but that it makes it so much easier to remain on that straight and narrow path if we do not invite these kinds of things that would tempt us (the visions of people inticing us and hearing the swear words and so forth) into our homes. I also think that it is natural for a girl to want to feel pretty, and again, I dont think the instruction is that God will not accept you if you wear make up or nail polish, but it is the why are you doing this and what kind of attention are you looking for in doing it?
ReplyDelete(continued) What are the matters of your heart, what does it get you? Is it simply that you feel good? Then feel free. But what about those others who would be tempted to wear it for the specific reason to tempt/charm a boy? I find it easier to be understanding of them and simply not wear it, to help them with these temptations. I can feel beautiful just the way God made me. As far as peircings and tattoos, these are more on the level of we are actually changing the way God made us. I really dont want to go into each and every 'guideline' in this way. If you have questions about a specific one feel free to ask, and I will try to explain why I feel it is a good one to have in place in our lives. Anyways, I think these 'guidelines' have generally been set for everyone as a way to be understanding of those who are tempted to do these things with the wrong sort of heart or final goal to help prevent them from falling into these sins that tempt them so much. Unfortunately, we have taught our kids that these are terrible horrors, and how do we unteach it? I know a family from the LLC where I grew up that every single one of their boys played football on the high school team, and played it well. Yes, this family was talked about, which was not right, but they were also accepted into the Church as part of the congregation. So, again, it is not the act of doing the sport, but that you stay humble and do not take the glory away from God.
DeleteI guess basically I am trying to say that you're right, it is not whether a person wears make up, or plays sports, or goes to movies, but it is in what heart are you doing it, and what kinds of things are you watching in the movies, is it something that will cause rocks on your path to heaven? Is it something that might cause another to have rocks in their path, and why would you want to make their path any tougher than it already is? I feel the more lenient ones have disregarded these guidelines for the wrong reasons, and the stricter ones have begun to simply follow tradition and placed their belief in man instead of in God. But, as I said, perhaps I have just not asked enough questions. I believe in the gospel message preached through another person as the forgiveness of sins, and I believe these guidelines help me (and others) to stay on that narrow path to Heaven.
I totally understand your point and agree with you that we should be considerate of others. But there has to be a balance, you know? We should not imply that these things are definitely wrong and rebuke someone if we see them doing something like this but simply state that faith is personal and each person has to consider their own choices. If someone was stealing from us, or commiting adultery however, those things would be means to rebuke another person, with love. We do not go around telling other people they should not smoke if we personally believe it is bad to smoke. The same should go for these things that are merely our outer shell.
DeleteAs far as what to do about it, I think it is simple.. We need to focus on what we SHOULD do instead of what we should not or what others should lr shouldnt do. We are free to do all things but should not use that to serve our flesh. If we are tempted to serve our flesh by watching movies, then we should not watch movies. But that doesn't mean we should tell everyone else it is a sin to watch movies or make it a church "guideline". What is sin? Noun
An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
Sin is in our hearts, therefore we cannot tell someone they are sinning by wearing makeup because we cannot see their hearts. If someone tells us that our makeup is a stumbling block for them, we should consider it. But I have worn makeup to church and no one has noticed. However if they had seen the tube of mascara in my purse, I probably would have been rebuked.
Okay, this gives me a few different thoughts, first of all, I agree that it has become a problem within our church that people are quick to judge others based on appearences. However, I don't think this is a basic belief or teaching of the church, but something that has become a stumbling block for many people and should be addressed (and I think is slowly being addressed). We are all human with sinful flesh and easily fall into these kinds of sins- sometimes without ever even realizing it. I don't feel it is a reason to leave the church or cause separation, but, like I said, is something that should be addressed.
DeleteNext; do you believe everyone would feel comfortable approaching a stranger (yes, many of our brothers and sisters in faith are virtual strangers-often you do not always even know their names anymore) to tell them what their own personal stumbling blocks are? For example, would you feel free to say "Excuse me, but when you wear eye shadow it gives me a strong urge to wear it as I know it makes my eyes pop and that attracts the boys and I really like that attention. I just cannot seem to get my heart in the right place for it and would appreciate it if you did not tempt me with it in this manner"? I think it is good to be kind to these brothers and sisters who deal with this and simply not wear it. Why does a person need it? If you have accepted Gods love for you, why can you not accept that he has made you as the perfect package you are?
My last thought was that I have recently discussed the use of make up with my sisters and was told that mascara has actually become widely accepted within the church. My understanding was that people use it because it helps them to feel good about themselves, if they have not slept well or whatever it hides the dark bags a person gets and they feel more energetic if they wear this. So, I'd guess you actually would not have been rebuked, unless the tube had been seen by that small percentage who think it's their duty to rebuke everyone for every little thing. I believe these kinds of people can be found in every church, they maybe fall into the sin of thinking they are better than others and this is their personal stumbling block on the way to heaven. Unfortunately, it is a hard one to address because then they think you are just trying to defend your own actions.
The same could be said with clothing and jewelry. We want to look good! Otherwise we would going around wearing a bag. There is nothing wrong with wanting to look good.
ReplyDeleteNo its not a problem you are in the LLC Jenny. I just will not debate faith with someone in the LLC. I will state what I believe but am not going to debate. Been there done that and it goes no where. I am secure in my beliefs and the debate just goes around and around and around. Its exhausting.
ReplyDeleteI was not trying to say that there is anything wrong with looking good, or wanting to look good, but just that make up can be such a temptation to use it to entice a member of the opposite sex, and I feel that that is not the right heart to use it with, and so I find it is easier to learn to accept the way God made you, and skip the makeup.... God made everyone beautiful in their own way.
ReplyDeleteJenny,
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think that people should be judged for their appearances why then do you call makeup a sin? And if you don't neccesarily think its a sin to wear it, why then do you think its a stumbling block for people supposedly because they want to attract the opposite sex? People wear makeup or dye their hair for the same reason they put on nice clothes or add a bracelet to their outfit. To look nice and feel put together. Do you put on nice clothes or jewelery only to attract the opposite sex?
-Eyes
Jenny,
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think that people should be judged for their appearances why then do you call makeup a sin? And if you don't neccesarily think its a sin to wear it, why then do you think its a stumbling block for people supposedly because they want to attract the opposite sex? People wear makeup or dye their hair for the same reason they put on nice clothes or add a bracelet to their outfit. To look nice and feel put together. Do you put on nice clothes or jewelery only to attract the opposite sex?
-Eyes
Eyes- I do not feel that make up in itself is a sin, but personally I feel that for many people make up falls into the same category as wearing a low cut top or a mini skirt, what kind of attention are you trying to gain by it? Also, make up changes the way you look more so than your clothing or a necklace. You can use it to make your eyes stand out more or to cover freckles, etc. Its all well and good to want to look your best, but why can you not feel that you look your best with out having to change your basic God given appearance in this manner (hiding freckles God gave you for example)?
ReplyDeleteBasically, where is your heart when you are using the make up? Are you really doing it just to feel good, and does this mean you have had to change the way God made you?
DeleteOne small note, would covering up pimples not be ok then? God gave them right? How about using spanx/spandex to look slimmer? God have us the extra weight right? Lol, I'm saying this somewhat half heartedly. But I understand your point and personally I don't use makeup to change the way I look but when I have used it, I only use it to enhance the way I look or for fun, the way I would wear a piece of jewelry. for example, cover up dark circles, pimples, and make myself look a little more bright and "glowy" or green eyeliner because I thought it was fun. The place of ones heart when using it is what important in my opinion as well. And we cannot know someone else's heart. -Sara
DeleteI don't believe that God gave you the weight or the pimples, but that these things come from how you are taking care of the body God has given you, true there are some who have pimples and so forth that seem to be inherited from the way their ancestors have treated their own bodies, but I do feel that if we truely seek what is right for our own bodies (and this is different for everyone), these things will no longer be an issue, it is not that God decided you should be fat/skinny. Some people seem to have a natural metabolism, but if we seek out those natural ways to boost the metabolism, in time we can also enjoy this. I know you were being a little tongue-in-cheek, but at the same time you were only somewhat half-hearted. FYI I have never used anything to cover up pimples either. I completely agree that we cannot know someone else's heart and as I have stated, I would never tell someone they will not make it to heaven just because they choose to put on a little green eye liner 'for fun'.
Deletejenny-if you understand pyschology at all, women actually dress for other women not men.. so that blows the theroy of trying to attract the opposiste sex.. plus then why get dressed up at all, for anything??
ReplyDeletein addition we all know perming someones hair can be WAY more dramatic than another person adding little highlights in their hair! perming was considered sin at one time, so was having a christmas tree-seems crazy doesnt it?!
*theory
Deleteand i dont want to sound disrespectful, for me i think these topics can hit nerves and unfortunately it can be easy to get frustrated..not necessarily at people but by the "rules".
DeleteOkay, I understand the theory that we dress nicely to impress other women (the most stylish/most expensive/cutest clothes or whatever), but you will have to show me the studies that say a women will put on a low cut top and short skirt in order to impress their friends before I could believe that one....to me this is purely done to attract the attention of males. And you get dressed up to make yourself feel good, and to show respect..... and as I stated before, I have myself never actually understood the hair one, but have had no desire to dye my hair so *shrugs* it has not been an issue for me.
DeleteWomen dress up to impress each other, not their men
ReplyDeleteBy: Agencies Date: 2011-06-14 Place: London
A survey has found that the myth that women spend hours in front of a mirror to impress their men is nowhere true, as most dress up to impress their peers.
A poll of 2,000 by Simple skincare found two thirds dress up to encourage compliments from other women, and six out of ten, aged between 18 and 30, said they had their girlfriends in mind when they chose what to wear.
More than a quarter said the most genuine compliments they received came from women they don't know -- not men.
"There is an assumption that women go all out to impress the opposite sex, but this research has revealed this isn't always the case," the Daily Mail quoted a spokesman for Simple skincare as saying.
"The fact that so many women care about what their peers think of their appearance is only natural.
"On the whole, women are much more in the know when it comes to clothes, make-up and style, so it's not a surprise that girls go out to impress other women as opposed to men," the spokesman said.
In the survey, more than half of women say they have never got themselves "dolled up" purely to snare a man and 22 percent claim a man's opinion doesn't matter to them at all.
And 48 per cent of women polled actually prefer to get a compliment from a female stranger as opposed to a man.
"Appearance is obviously important to women - they want to look good at all times. It's nice to know that girls are out to impress their peers and it's not all about the opposite sex," the Simple spokesman added.
this still does not say that a women will put on a short skirt/low cut top to impress another female. So, I can still say I completely agree with this research/theory. I believe when we get 'dolled up' for a function or dressed for our every day lives, we think about what our friends would like, or hope to get compliments from friends when we wear something new, not guys. Unless you are specifically getting dressed for a date or when you wear revealing clothing that is when you do so for the attention of a guy. I think there is a difference.
DeleteJenny,
ReplyDeleteYou were putting makeup in the catagory of low-cut shirt and a short skirt. That is why someone posted that article. Most people don't put makeup in that category. They put makeup in the catagory of styling hair or putting clothes on. You are mixing up the whole debate because you have convinced yourself that makeup is equal to dressing immodestly. You've probably convinced yourself of this because it then makes it easier for you to accept the absurd LLC rule (and yes it's a rule) that makeup is not right. Makeup is not equal to immodest clothes. Probably 90% of the population wear makeup. Are they all out there trying to attract the opposite sex? Give me a break. Do you think the 93 year old grandma who is putting on makeup is doing it to attract the opposite sex?
-Eyes
Agreed! Makeup has nothing to do with your heart condition. Its cultural, not spiritual. Its not important.
DeleteNo, I dont think the grandma wearing make up is trying to get sex, but I think for a small percentage it is in the same category as low cut tops. And even if we don't worry about that small percentage, if God made each and every one of us perfect to Him, why do we feel the need to change the way we look? Clothes do not change the way we were made, nor does necklaces, rings, bracelets. I know you are going to bring up curling hair as changing the way we look in response to that argument, and feel free, but I can tell you right now I have no response to that, I am doing my own searching. And don't tell me there is no response, I can figure that out on my own, thanks. (And yes, I am being rude because you were rude to me, and I am tired and cranky already-which doesnt make it right, but I am human too and sometimes I just cannot control my human emotions. Why can we not discuss this without putting people DOWN???)
DeleteIf we all try to see eye to eye on every tiny issue we will miss the big picture! We should focus on the spirit of Christ, not in the tiny minuscule details of our lives. If I see a cloud in the sky as blue and someone else sees it as gray I am not going to convince him that the cloud is blue no matter how hard I try. But I can accept that he sees it as grey and love him, even if we don't see it as the same color. If we continue to battle about what color the tiny cloud in the sky is, we are going to miss the huge vast beauty of the entire sky. We could argue for eternity about whether the cloud is blue or grey and come to no conclusion or we could appreciate the beauty of the sky together and have love for each other and revel in the fact that we both see the majestic beauty of the sky in it's entirety.
DeleteThank you for the article anonymous. It confirmed what I think most of us already know.
ReplyDelete-Eyes
Neither does makeup change the way you are made (as you put it) any more than clothes. They are all something a person puts on, and can later take off, for the purpose of improving ones appearance. Why do you feel they are so different? Yes, clothes are necessary to keep one warm, but they don't have to be cute to accomplish that purpose. As Joy said earlier, just put on a bag. We don't because we like to look nice. Human nature (especially for females). Why does the LLC try to deny so much of what is natural for a female?
ReplyDelete-Eyes
Eyes-thank you for being respectful. Clothes are neccesary to keep one warm, but females enjoy looking nice and so we find cute and stylish things to wear. Although make up is something a person takes off at the end of the day, if you put it on EVERY morning to hide freckles for example, and never want anyone, except maybe your partner, to see these freckles because you think they are so ugly, then you are using it to change the way you are made-God put those freckles on your nose/cheeks! (you can argue that your DNA did, but it was God who decided to give you that particular DNA) If you think that only girls who have naturally reddened cheeks are pretty, so you use blush every morning, then you are changing the way God made you. You can be confident and pretty in the way God made you.
ReplyDeleteWhat about getting braces? Using the particular logic you use about makeup, it follows then that you should think that a person who has extremely crooked teeth should just realize that they can be confident and pretty in the way God made them. Therefore, they should choose to not get braces.
ReplyDelete-Eyes
"Medical Reasons For Braces
ReplyDeleteA common misconception for braces is that they are purely cosmetic. This very untrue, in fact there are many different health reasons for orthodontics. The primary function of braces is to move teeth to the best possible alignment, or in dental terms, occlusion. An off bite, can lead to many oral health problems, including jaw pain. Malocclusion is the term used to discuss the relationship between the upper and lower teeth. Your orthodontist will mention of three classifications as defined by the Angles Classification Method: class 1, is an ideal relationship between upper and lower bite, Class II is more commonly known as an “overbite”, which occurs when your upper teeth protrude over your lower, Class III, is also known as an “under bite” is when the patient’s lower jaw is protruding the upper teeth. Any of these classes can require orthodontia help, because of the further problem with crowding and spacing. Crowding causes teeth to overlap, flip, rotate, or grow in the wrong position of the mouth. This can be a problem because it can make brushing and flossing difficult, leading to tooth decay, or periodontal problems.
Children should see the orthodontist at around age seven, to catch any future problems that may arise, but it is not limited to just children, adults can benefit as well. Orthodontia has been known to help correct numerous conditions, including : speech impediments, jaw or TMJ pain, difficulty chewing and eating, sleep apnea, grinding and clenching, and gum disease and tooth decay"
-written by KamyDental http://kamydental.com/wordpress/2010/06/medical-reasons-for-braces/
I was told I should get braces, and being under the misconception that they were purely for cosmetic reasons, I declined and now in my adulthood I am having TONS of problems with cavities between my teeth because I cannot fit floss between them-it breaks and does not go in. I would never recommend someone not get braces because they will end up like this!
I know people who have had braces for purely cosmetic reasons, and I have NEVER heard any Laestadian say they believe braces are wrong, even when done for cosmetic reasons. But, if God made a person perfect, and exactly the way he wanted a person to be, why do they have crooked teeth? And if he made a person with crooked teeth, he must have wanted them made that way, so using your logic, a person should stay with the crooked teeth, no matter what the reason, because changing would be changing how God made you. Let'a agree to disagree. I don't see your logic that it's wrong to improve upon appearaces. I have yet to see a bible verse that prohibits it. I know we are perfect in the sight of God, but God sees our hearts. I don't think he concerns himself with our outward appearance. And as far as freckles go, that is simply sun damage. Is it wrong to remove cancer that is caused by sun damage? After all God made your body in such a way that you are more susceptable to cancer. You see, we could go on and on. We simply disagree, and its probably very unlikely we will see eye to eye on the subject.
ReplyDelete-Eyes
I'm not sure about how a person would get braces for cosmetics. If the dentist recommends them, I believe there is a reason. But, I am content to agree to disagree. I also want to clarify one thing though, I will never look at someone and say they are going to hell just because they are wearing makeup or got braces for cosmetic reasons. If they are professing to believe their sins forgiven as preached by the gospel and are professing that their heart is in the right place, I will not question them. (FYI: some freckles are hereditary-not all kinds are caused by sun damage)
ReplyDeleteNot trying to be rude but honestly do you really think God gives a hoot how we look?!? He cares about our hearts period. Its a way to get people to bicker and take their eyes off the Lord.
ReplyDeleteIf God does not care a hoot then why does the bible instruct in 1 timothy 2:9-10
Delete9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
I just think he wants us to be modest and to realize that he made us to be perfect in His eyes. That even though it is natural to want to look our best, we need to be modest about it. He wants us to recognize our inner beauty through our loving heart, which we have achieved through him.
Elaborate hair, or gold, or pearls, or expensive clothing. I find it odd that you use this verse to support your opinion, yet all of these are okay in the LLC...and somehow makeup and dyeing hair aren't. The things that are listed aren't wrong, but the things that are listed are wrong...what am I missing here?
DeleteThere is nothing wrong with wearing jewelry, makeup, or braided hair as long as it is done in a modest manner. A woman should not be so focused on her outward appearance that she neglects her inner spiritual life. The Bible focuses on the heart. If a woman is spending too much time and money on her appearance, the problem is that the woman’s priorities are wrong. Expensive jewelry and clothing and makeup are the results of the problem, not the problem itself. As it has been said, we are not saying you will not go to heaven if you wear make up, but rather, where is your heart in doing so, and why can you not be pleased in the perfectness of Gods creation (you).
DeleteI think you're still missing the point Anon 5:21 tried to make.
DeleteThe BIBLE mentions "jewelry, braided hair and costly array" and here you are saying there is nothing wrong with it. "As long as it's done in a modest manner." And I would like to also point out that it sounds like you are contradicting the Bible and adding your own words to it.
Furthermore, the things that the LLC says are sin--makeup and coloring hair--they are not something a woman should want to do. Well, these things are NOT mentioned in this scripture you referenced.
Yet those are wrong according to the LLC. Oh, wait. We won't call it wrong. We'll say that the church has decided it's not an activity that a believer should be doing.
Splitting hairs. Same difference whether you admit it or not.
And not to nitpick, but you cannot speak out of both sides of your mouth with integrity. You can't say, oh, we're not saying that you won't go to heaven if you wear makeup, and at the same time be saying that if a woman wears makeup, it shows that she isn't happy with the way God made her, and if she's doing that, she probably isn't believing the right way, and if you follow that to the only logical conclusion, not believing the right way means that you are believing the wrong way. If you're believing the wrong way, you must not be going to heaven. You're saying it without having to actually say it. It's BS.
DeleteAnd if you try to sidestep all of that, you have no truth in your head. But if you won't admit it to yourself, you don't have to explain it to anyone else either. You talk in circles and you go nowhere.
I think God DOES care about the way we treat one another though, so lets not forget about that in our disagreements and discussions. I love that we are all having these conversations. Thank you all for your input! I think maybe what Jenny was trying to say was that she personally doesn't understand why someone would feel the need to wear makeup, if they are content in the way God made them, but also that she can't judge another person for wearing makeup, because faith is personal and also that She may not see why someone would choose to wear it, but that doesnt make it wrong. For one person, they may be tempted to use makeup to be sexy and attract sexual attention or become consumed with their appearance and forgetting the matters of the heart but for another person it may mean nothing more than putting on a piece of jewelry. We can't know another's intentions so we shouldn't judge something like this as right or wrong. It's not the paint our face that God's going to care about but the spirit in which we put it on. It is good for us to be mindful of our own intentions and focus on our personal faith and not be concerned so much with the details of another persons life, that we get so caught up in watching everyone else, we forget about ourselves. It is also good to remember that there may be some people in the LLC that do this, but that doesn't mean everyone does! It may feel like an overriding majority at times but the people who have the confidence to voice their opinions are not always right. There may be others who think the person who takes a turn to speak is not correct but they are afraid of the finger being pointed at them. Remember too though, those of you sitting in the pews, quiet and afraid to speak your heart, to stand fast in the ways of The Lord and not the ways of men. Do not fear the judgement of men, but the judgement of God. Just because some feel they have a right to judge the intentions and heart of another doesn't make it so. You may be judged by men, but The Lord is the final judge. Show love to those who have judged you also because perhaps they have become blinded with self righteousness and DO wish to do what is right but have lost sight. "But if you bite and devour one another be careful that you do not become consumed with one another." Jesus does not teach us to only love those who love us but to love even those who despise us. He cried on the cross for those who crucified him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." We should remember his love for us and use it as an example in our daily lives and our interactions with all people. It is a touching message. "Be not overcome with evil but overcome evil with good."
DeleteM. David, thank you for helping me explain my view points. This is exactly what I was trying to say, and you did a very good job of explaining it, I was very touched. It was a very good reminder to me to not be afriad of what man thinks, but rather, God-even (and maybe especially) at a discussion.
DeleteWell said M. David!!
DeleteAre you in the LLC? Makeup is definately taught as wrong in the LLC, even in modest makeup.
ReplyDeleteIt is a common misunderstanding that many take away, but is not the instruction of the LLC
DeleteSo you're telling me I could go to church next Sunday and every Sunday after that, with a face full of makeup, and nobody is going to be 'concerned' about my faith, or wonder if I'm believing. I am positive that 95% of the church would at the very least question my faith, and many would assume I had already left. I also know that people would refuse to greet me. I have seen it happen with my own eyes. What you said about it not being the instruction of the LLC is not accurate, and is smoke and mirrors, similar to the fallacy that the LLC does not have do's and don'ts, when we all know that really they do; its just an unwritten list.
DeleteSo why, then, are our girls coming home from youth camp and telling us that they can't wear lip gloss or even clear fingernail polish if it's not the instruction of the LLC? And why is it that so many people have the same common misunderstanding if that is not the case? Smoke and mirrors is right.
DeleteI am truly beginning to have serious doubts about this "one Spirit" because I hear so many different opinions and instructions and apparently, "common misunderstandings" now, too. Good grief.
Mia
Mia- I think what you have to understand is that these girls are deciding these things themselves at youth camp. During a candle light discussion (which is a common occurance in todays youth camps), the speaking is left (pretty much) up to the youth, and is where these topics are discussed... So, why are we as parents teaching these things to our children, if so many of us do not believe them to be true? We need to examine what we are telling our kids that causes them to come away with these impressions.
DeleteAnon (26th 4:16) I dont think anyone has said that people would not wonder about you if you showed up at church like that, because those who choose not to use make up feel that it in some way harms their own walk of faith, and so they become concerned when they see it on others-if it harms their walk it is only natural that they think it might harm yours. But I have said that they do not have the right to judge your heart, this judging is their own problem, and you cannot worry of the judging of men, but only of God. Even if many members would be concerned because they themselves feel uncomfortable with such actions (and if some would refuse to greet you-shame on them!), but if you believe the teachings of the LLC-which is that you may recieve your sins forgiven through the preaching of the gospel and the belief in it- then you have every right to be confident in that belief, and the teaching of your conscience. Now, one cannot be participating in those clear sins of drunkeness, permiscuity, infidelity without expecting people to lovingly confront them. But, I also think you should be cautious of becoming defensive if there is truely nothing to defend.
Off topic,but could there be a post about sexual abuse in the church? I found it interesting this weekend at Winter Services, that there was so much talk about people questioning the LLC or criticizing the church, and nothing about abuse.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking about one man in particular who everyone knows has been abusing his family for generations, and the sick tradition has carried on into further generations of his family, resulting in many messed up people. Yet this man is drinking coffee and chatting with all the leaders in the LLC and other respected elders, with no shame at all. I know one minister, who gave a presentation and went on and on about how awful it was that someone close to him left the church, knows a lot about this man's sexual abuse over the years. Yet he does nothing.
Many of us, who know of his crimes, but can't do anything because all we know is considered "hearsay" in a court of law, are very disgusted. Some to the point where they feel like they don't want to come around any more, unfortunately. Its not just this man's (and others) crimes that disgusts people, but the fact that the LLC doesn't use its position of influence to right a terrible wrong. He should be in prison, and would be in prison if the ministers in the LLC did the right thing.
I saw this guy holding his great granddaughter in line waiting for coffee, chatting away with people his age who know what a vile person he is, and yet nobody says anything. Many elders and ministers don't seem to be bothered by it at all.
A man who has a 50 year long reputation as a child molester, which is known by nearly everyone, including by ministers who know enough and have enough influence to put him in prison where he belongs, warmly greeted by those same people, who then invite him to sit for coffee. It makes me want vomit.
There is no justice in the LLC when it comes to crimes of one of our members. Its more important to keep a semblance of cohesion, than do what is right.
And may the victims be damned.
Yes, I think we should talk about this instead of having long earnest misguided discussions about how women should not want to wear makeup, for crying out loud. Sexual abuse wounds and scars children for life, and is AGAINST THE LAW, but the known abusers walk around scot free, able to continue molesting. They are greeted and treated like honored guests at the party. But let a woman put a few highlights in her hair and wear a little discreet makeup, and people will freely make rude disrespectful comments, to her face even, about her character, her behavior and even her very precious faith. Something is so wrong with this picture.
DeleteThose people who do that may not have the right spirit in doing so and if one feels they are not doing wrong by doing such things, perhaps they should kindly tell the other person so. Do not become defensive if you are not doing anything against God, there is no reason to defend yourself or be concerned with the judgement of a person. Fear God, not men. And show love to those who judge, they may be misguided. It can feel like someone is coming across as judging but we too, cannot see their heart. perhaps they do not understand because for them personally, they feel what we are doing would cause them to sin. If we are offended, we should tell them so as well. As far as the sexual abuse in the church, it is good to remember not to be silent when we have been wronged. Especially when we are a victim of repeated offense. We can forgive, but that does not mean a predator should be allowed to continue to prey. Perhaps when we could us the verse of cutting off our foot if it causes us to sin. Maybe in a sense, these people need to be in jail to "cut off their feet" so they do not continue to fall into this sin it seems they have no control of? We can still forgive and couldn't it be said that doing this, it is showing love to the predator in a way, so he cannot fall into this sin anymore?
DeleteIf someone was addicted to drugs and they came and asked forgiveness then went and did drugs again and asked forgiveness and went and did drugs again, we would put them into treatment, would we not? Why would this be any different, especially considering that they are not only harming themselves, but many many others...
DeleteWhat do you think the LLC could do about this? Wouldn't what they say, also, not be considered "hearsay" in the court of law? What does the LLC KNOW that you do not? Only the victims can bring this man to justice, if, what you say, is true. Innocent until proven guilty. A believer until you no longer have the desire to reach heaven one day. You can repent of your sins, but you still have to pay for crimes you have commited in regards to the laws of the land. If you confess these sins, it does not mean you get off scott free, you have a duty to the laws. If you confess to shoplifting-you still pay for the crime. Yes, if this is true, it is a very sick, twisted, and serious crime and this man SHOULD pay for these things! He SHOULD get help so that they do not occure again!! But in Gods eyes it is just as much of a sin as adultery. The only unforgiven sin is unbelief.
DeleteIf a person tells someone that they have been abused, or that they have abused someone, the person who they have told has a legal obligation to report the crime. Not reporting is a felony. Plain and simple.
DeleteMinisters and others are made aware of this kind of stuff by victims, perpetrators, and family members, but they choose to "forgive and forget" instead of following the law, thereby committing a felony.
Actually, ministers do not have a 'legal obligation' to report in all states (google it if you dont believe me), though I do believe they have a moral one. Anyone actually has the OPTION of reporting sexual abuse, you do not have to wait for someone who has a legal obligation to do so. If it is so well-known and obvious that this person has commited these crimes, you do not have to wait for the ministers to do the reporting. I am not in any way condoning the actions of the Ministers if they are, indeed, choosing to ignore these statements of abuse, I am just saying that you cannot place all the blame on them.
DeleteThey don't ignore the abuse. They "forgive and forget" and then put pressure on the victims and those around them not to go to authorities or school counselors, etc. Everything is washed away in the sea of grace. This HAS happened many times. Although I must concede there has been a few positive steps in the right direction on this issue lately, but there should be much more.
DeleteThe only ministers that are protected by law are ordained ministers who are working as counselors to their congregation as part of their daily work. In fact, they legally CANNOT report a confession unless they think someone is in eminent danger. (This is why the catholic church got away with abuse for so long) Ministers who are not ordained, but work in the same role as an ordained minister fall in the same category, but the law isn't as clear on this.
Ministers who work in administrative positions with the LLC, or who are lay preachers, which covers the vast majority of all LLC ministers; are not protected by law and must report abuse confessed to them or they are committing a felony. The reason lay preachers are not covered is because it would be to easy to cover up knowledge of crimes by church organizations by calling any person a lay preacher.
I know this because I emailed quite a bit a few years back with a law firm in Minneapolis that has brought many lawsuits against the Catholic Church on behalf of victims. Ministers in the LLC who hear confessions of abuse, are opening themselves, the LLC, and their local congregations up to the potential of a lawsuit. Plus they are committing a felony.
Most importantly, they are doing an injustice to victims by not going to the police. And that's just plain wrong.
"Most importantly, they are doing an injustice to victims by not going to the police. And that's just plain wrong." True that the legality is not the issue, I am just saying that we need not point fingers at the ministers, though if all this is true they are indeed in the wrong, but rather that if "everyone" KNOWS this to be true, then we are ALL commiting this same act of wrong doing by not going to the police. If this is such a FACT then there should be action taken, we need not wait for ministers to realize their own wrong doings.
DeleteIn approximately 18 States and Puerto Rico, any person who
Deletesuspects child abuse or neglect is required to report. Of
these 18 States, 16 States and Puerto Rico specify certain
professionals who must report but also require all persons to
report suspected abuse or neglect, regardless of profession.8
New Jersey and Wyoming require all persons to report without
specifying any professions. In all other States, territories, and the
District of Columbia, any person is permitted to report. These
voluntary reporters of abuse are often referred to as “permissive
reporters.” -childwelfare.gov
Off topic, yes, but glad you brought it up. I know exactly what you're talking about and I narrowly escaped it. It's like wow, you're holding your great granddaughter. All of the rest of us know that given you're alive in about 5 or so years, and the opportunity presents itself, you'll strike again. And what is the mom thinking! Trying to win the support of the family by being supportive of him?! It makes me actually vomit. And he and his wife carry on as if they are the most normal of normal, and nobody actually moves away or refuses a handshake. Kids are not told to watch out. His wife is as disgusting to me for allowing it to continue...even if you are there to be a support to your husband, shouldn't at some point you talk to someone about the destructive behavior spanning generations and countless of innocent babes and forming more abusers?! Ugh. The church is NOT equipped to handle these issues and in fact is not equipped to deal with any number of issues including the one that this blog posting is regarding. How can one be free to go to an elder or a minister in confidence when that is never the case? The minister will tell his wife, who will put her spin on it, and will be re-told by the trusted friend she told, and it will go on and on. Like previous anon said, the victims will be damned. The church will remain silent. They will address that people in the world are attacking and speaking vicious lies. I think that the "worldly people" would just like to see some accountablility or, at the very least, some affimative action.
ReplyDeleteMakeup? Clothes? Music? Really not even a big deal to me that anyone chooses or chooses not to wear, engage in, etc. The big deal to me is that the LLC is a stellar environment for the perpetuation of living in fear. I think that simply being a member of the LLC is being in support of being spiritually abusive to the children/lessers born into this culture, by default. If you are a member, then indirectly you are in support. I pray that enough noise can be made to FORCE the church to admit that it is an organization sworn to uphold it's mission statement, not control every minute aspect of people's lives. And, for those of you still in the LLC that will inevitably be offended by my comments...I don't care. You offend me by thinking that you have the answers, when in fact the only One who has the answers is God.
Bitter much?
DeleteNo, not bitter. Angry with the injustices of the perpetuation of fear toward innocent victims, and the lack of attention to important aspects of spirituality. What a typical Laestadian response. You just proved my point(s) by completely refusing to address any of my points, and instead attacking me. Congratulations. :)
DeleteAmen, to all of you and your points about sexual abuse and the church. Anon (Feb 25 12:23) you are absolutely right. It is spiritual abuse. All of it. The micromanaging of peoples lives about things that are not faith matters (its tradition) and ignoring REAL issues like sexual abuse, its all spiritual abuse. People, look up what spiritual abuse is. I have. You will be surprised to find out that the LLC fits the profile.
ReplyDeleteGood point its almost like politics- keep people talking about things that dont really matter, it takes the focus off of things that really do but are not perhaps discussed.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting how the teaching of the LLC/SRK has evolved over the years. How are we supposed to just accept what we are told when it turns out much.of the 70s-80s they were making a work of confession, for example. This is serious stuff. People were afraid, and a bunch of overreaching rules made life miserable, yet people were supposed to be thankful to have been given such a gift.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to share some of my experiences as a former believer that may be of help in this conversation. A couple years ago, when I still belonged to the church, I was sexually assaulted by another believer on the way to Haps. I brought it up to a best friend, and it was reported to the police and so on. My best friends, parents, and the minister that we talked to took the side of the assaultant, and told me that I was to blame for leading him on. They defended him, and I went through many mental health problems because I truley thought that they were right- I was to blame for what had happened to me. The man that did this still belongs to the church and no one has done anything. He was not put into jail, and nothing at all has happened to him. He walks free. I know now that it wasn't my fault and I couldn't have done anything to stop him, but some of the people that knew about it still think of me as being at fault rather than him. How does this make sense?
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your story Anon. You are not the only one this has happened to, that's for sure. There are plenty of sexual predators loose in the LLC.
DeleteI have a family member who was sexually assaulted at a youth get together in a park as a young teen. Luckily he was able to get out of the situation before things went to far. The guy who assaulted him was in his twenties.
Things went the same as your situation. He told someone, they called the cops (who were incompetent), then two ministers found out about it from the perpetrator's family and proceeded to put immense pressure on my family member and the person who called the cops not to press charges, so nothing ever became of it. Of course, there was no forgiveness either because the perpetrator was from a prominent family. The guy who did it is married with kids now. I've heard he's done similar things to other males, so either he is a closeted gay person or a sexual deviant.
Studies have shown that most sexual predators/offenders are actually straight males.
DeleteThank you for sharing. I promise to everyone here that I will be a part of the solution by continuing my anonymous activism behind the scenes in this regard.
M. David...could we start another string for this topic? It seems as though there is alot that needs to be said on the subject of abuse/assaults and the way they are handled. It's one of the things that concerns me most about the LLC, as I still have many people I care deeply for still within.
I would be wiling to do a post on the issue. If someone would like to share a personal experience they could email it to me, otherwise I will find another way to address the issue.
DeleteYou could just take a couple of the comments of the personal stories of abuse shared here and make them a new post.
Delete-Eyes
I just learned of this tonight from a very reliable person. It is an example of the sexual sickness that is covered up in the LLC.
DeleteThere is a man in Cokato who is a deviant person. Example: He has killed puppies and forced his children and nieces and nephews to watch. I heard this from someone who was force do watch this as a child. About five years ago this man was caught by his wife molesting a child who was under one year old. She wanted to kick him out for good as did her family who supported her 100%.
One certain lantern jawed minister in Minneapolis, and another minister with a unique balding pattern in Minneapolis got involved. The man asked for forgiveness and was contrite to them. The family wasn't buying it because they knew of his years long track record, and were at the end of their rope. They told the ministers as much. The ministers passive aggressively attempted to change the families mind and told them that it would be wrong to go to the law or kick the man out of the house. This got to the point where the uniquely balding minister was yelling at the family in a conference call, "Don't you believe in miracles? in forgiveness? He is a changed man." The lantern jawed minister continued to chase down one of the family members, who is very well respected in Minneapolis, for several years to try and get him to change his mind. Everyone I know holds this family and their very evident faith in the highest regard, but the ministers could care less when it comes to the potential damaging reputation of the church.
I know that the lantern jawed guy knows of many sexual crimes of a family in Northern MN, but he never does anything about them besides forgive and forget. Two of the family members in this family , including the patriarch, have had charges filed against them which were later dropped because the police couldn't get cooperation from the victims when it came time to testify in court. Why? The sins are forgiven and its wrong to dig them back up again. Who preaches this to the people in these awful situations? Ministers.
I have done much sleuthing on this issue and I have many victim stories I could share. I saw the case file of a case in another state where the victim was molested over several years by the relative. Right in the case file its says that the victim told two people, who then talked to the perpetrator who asked for his sins to be forgiven and they were. She told a third person, who I happen to know has a backbone of steel, who immediately called the cops and told those who told him shouldn't do it and just "forgive" to take a hike. The victim was fortunate to have someone who cared about her enough to do the right thing.
I think its time for people to start sharing what they know, even if its stuff back from many years ago. The culture of forgive and forget needs to change for these crimes in a major way.
Thanks for the support, all. It is a big step for me, being able to post here and read others' stories. I really appreciate it.
DeleteThat is so crazy, about the ministers supporting those abusers! And I know if I hadn't seen it for myself, it would be hard to believe. It goes against all common sense.
DeleteThe sad thing is that sexual abuse is almost like, hereditary. Those who are abused as kids will many times grow up to be someone who abuses others. And when nothing is done to break the cycle and there is no accountability to speak of, and the ministers go out of their way to right the "wrong" that has been done to the perpetrator, it will continue to perpetuate itself until someone steps out and diverts the flow of abuse. Flak will fly up in the air and the debris from the collision will seem overwhelming. I look forward to that day when the first step is taken to free the victims from the bondage of this false "forgiveness".
I just tried to "like" your post. :0
DeleteI know of a ministers wife who had laser surgery on her veins in her legs because she was sick of looking at them and she decided after 13 kids, she deserved it:). I think she does too, the downside of this is that this women is so firmly esconsced in the llc. She is the first to criticize makeup, etc and say how wrong it is and believers don't do that. What's wrong with this picture? If it were not so pathetic, I'd be ROTFLing!
ReplyDeleteBut shouldn't this be our first clue that this is not the teachings of the LLC or of the ministers? If the ministers wife feels so free to say there is nothing wrong with make up itself, then I think its pretty clear that she does not think her husband is teaching against such things.... (yes, I know husbands and wives do have differences of opinion from time to time, but if her husband is so truely manipulative as you all seem to believe the ministers are, and doesnt want her saying these things because he doesnt believe them, i'm sure he would find a way to get her to stop voicing them)
DeleteMaybe you will or maybe you will not be surprised to hear I am a ministers daughter and have spent a lot of time discussing these matters with my dad, and, yet, I am one who says that I don't understand why some feel they need makeup, but dont think they wont go to heaven just because they put it on, rather it is what is in their heart and their conscience. If the LLC truely thought makeup was a surefire path to Hell, wouldnt my dad, in his manipulative ways (according to all of you), help me see that I am wrong? Instead he encourages the way I understand such things. I just cannot see my dad refusing to greet someone with God's Peace just because they are wearing makeup.....
Jenny,
DeleteI am not sure if you read anon Feb 28 5:45 am's comment correctly. That person did not say that the ministers wife thought makeup was okay. The person said the minister's wife was the first to criticize makeup and say it is wrong. The person also was making the point that it was weird that this ministers wife thought getting surgery to remove varicose veins to improve her looks was fine, but makeup to improve looks was not. I think you missed the point.
-Eyes
you're right, I completely misread there....so, has anyone asked this ministers wife why she felt it was okay to do one and not the other...? I think it's a valid question....
DeleteJenny,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you need to take the fact that the woman being judgemental was a minister's wife personally. You have shown here that you are at least willing to consider another's thought process. Your dad SHOULD encourage you to sort through matters in whatever fashion works for YOU, after all, faith is personal and realistically God will find a way to express His will in your life however it applies to you.
I do, however, find it interesting that you did not comment on any of the abuse/violation issues while you have been so active in so many other conversations and off-shoot threads.
Thank you Anon. I have not commented on any of the abuse/violation comments because I feel I am not in the position to comment. I have no personal experience in the matter. I do not know what ministers know or do not know, as I am not in the room during any confessions, nor am I in the room for any of these 'pressure sessions' people have said occur. I do not have any knowledge of those within the church who 'everyone' knows abused someone (well, I guess I have heard of one, but he went to jail for it), I guess ignorance is bliss? I can say that I do not believe my dad (now that I have said he is a minister) knows anything of these matters simply because we are a family who is hugely advocative of victims getting the help and support they need- not tomorrow, not next year, not next week. The instant they are brave enough to say something they should be taken seriously, at least until things can be proven otherwise (because, yes, unfortunately, people do lie about these things). I can also say that it appalls and scares me to think that this has been occurring. I hesitate to say even that much as it is a very sensitive topic. I do not want to wind up making someone feel unvalidated. It is a horrible thing, and when you feel people do not believe you, do not understand, or think it is your fault, it only makes things worse. Please, allow me to continue to remain a quiet observer in this particular topic from here on out as I feel unworthy to comment on it.
Delete